• Nigel Adkins has been given the Tranmere job on a permanent basis signing until the end of the 25/26 season. Continue the discussion here.

League Two Rovers (1) v Sutton (0)

Match result

  • Tranmere

    Votes: 3 60.0%
  • Draw

    Votes: 1 20.0%
  • Sutton

    Votes: 1 20.0%

  • Total voters
    5
  • Poll closed .
Rovers (1) v Sutton (0)
Posted by Ian
Prenton Park
Saturday, March 2, 2024 - 03:00 PM
Until: Saturday, March 2, 2024 - 05:00 PM
(Adjusted for timezone: Europe/London)
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Sparky

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Apter makes it into the EFL team of the week as well as Suttons keeper.

ironically (perhaps not in a good way), our next three opponents have players in it too 4 (Gilligham), 2 (Mansfield) and 2 (Wrexham).
Ged Brannan gets the weekly manager award for another last minute 3-2 Morecambe comeback, this time at Crewe
 
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Am on mobile

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Our season is basically over we just need to have fun we are going to get around 60 points just enjoy relax and chill
 
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Our season is basically over we just need to have fun we are going to get around 60 points just enjoy relax and chill
AM, your sentiment is spot on. Let’s just try and enjoy the end to the season.

I hope your prediction is right. Five wins and two draws from our last ten games would be a positive end to an up and down season, putting us in a good place for next year.
 

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Well we have taken a girl from rovers she had been working for them over a year. Its not great when you hear the staff wait ages to get their wages. And dont even get a work place pension. That surprises me. Its like a lotvof things at the club at the moment its all about doing it on the cheap. If mark and Nicky have run out of money they need to move on. Even the regular Facebook stuff has stopped
 

Ian

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But they can’t sell it. Well, not to anyone credible anyway.
 

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Thats the issue isn't it, mark is in his 70s and his health is not good somthing has to give
 
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We don't actually know what the situation is regarding a sale. Palios said recently he is actively looking for a buyer and hopes to sell within twelve months.

He may need to lower his asking price to conclude a sale, which is another matter. A number of clubs at this level - Notts County, Stockport, Wrexham, Gillingham - have changed hands in recent months, and League Two clubs are not an unattractive proposition in the current climate.
 

Ian

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We don't actually know what the situation is regarding a sale. Palios said recently he is actively looking for a buyer and hopes to sell within twelve months.
No but guessing makes it fun. He's made it no secret that he's been looking for a buyer for some time and we haven't found a buyer yet. I can't believe there wouldn't be any interest so if there are any interested parties either they cannot come to an agreement regarding the sale as MP did say he still wanted some element of control or as you say, he's asking too much.
 

dollar'sbloke

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Did he say he hoped to sell or gain more investment, I think the latter. We have been up for sale since he stabilised the club, no takers.
The Indonesians, I think have a £4 million holding and this will have legal restrictions on the club. As the minority shareholders there is no way Palios can just sell his shares to a third party, leaving them 'in' but with no control. I would strongly suggest they have first option to buy and if a third party takes over they must buy the Indonesian shares.
Ergo my view would be the Indonesians could buy by just paying Palios what he needs for his majority holding, which on paper is three times their investment. I'd guess Palios would want his cash back at least, so probably a lot less than the implied £12 million!
However anyone else would be looking at a £16 million price tag in theory. My hunch would be its the Indonesians or nobody. It's a lot of money to be the ones who foots the bills and the grief.
 
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bigmart

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Mark's latest statement said he is looking for investment but its no secret he's looking to sell the club on, I highly doubt the Indonesians will increase their stake.
Just seen on sky that around 25% of EFL clubs are owned by American investors/investment companies so this maybe our best hope of a sale going forward
 
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You forgot the club's debt and owners debt.
Not just the share holding and valuation of the club and land.
Then there is still our former chairman's and family interests and shares
The trust's and supporters shares.
And how the bank sorts it all out, and how much the club is willing to sell it for.
Sort this all out?????
I'm not an expert.
But I'm Only a shareholder. And I fear where we are going.

Only the lawyers will gain from it all as usual.
 

dollar'sbloke

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You forgot the club's debt and owners debt.
Not just the share holding and valuation of the club and land.
Then there is still our former chairman's and family interests and shares
The trust's and supporters shares.
And how the bank sorts it all out, and how much the club is willing to sell it for.
Sort this all out?????
I'm not an expert.
But I'm Only a shareholder. And I fear where we are going.

Only the lawyers will gain from it all as usual.
No one has shareholding above 1% except the main two and Lorraine, she only just above. Your shares are worthless, no takeover has to be referred to you. The club's commercial debts go with the on-going business.
There isn't a big issue here as no one is offering to buy. Indonesians may increase their stake, no one else will come in as a minor as it makes no sense. Indonesians could buy outright and someone else could but it would cost £4 million more.
PJ has no visible legacy financially, if he retained a side deal with Palios personally. I have long suspected he did but I also wouldn't be surprised if that has now expired.
The crux of the issue is how much the two parties want to leave either individually or together. Remember any buy out starts with the shares so money to boost the club, that is another need. Big business now, PJ bought the lot for half a million
 

ADD

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No one has shareholding above 1% except the main two and Lorraine, she only just above. Your shares are worthless, no takeover has to be referred to you. The club's commercial debts go with the on-going business.
There isn't a big issue here as no one is offering to buy. Indonesians may increase their stake, no one else will come in as a minor as it makes no sense. Indonesians could buy outright and someone else could but it would cost £4 million more.
PJ has no visible legacy financially, if he retained a side deal with Palios personally. I have long suspected he did but I also wouldn't be surprised if that has now expired.
The crux of the issue is how much the two parties want to leave either individually or together. Remember any buy out starts with the shares so money to boost the club, that is another need. Big business now, PJ bought the lot for half a million
There is a massive Other Creditors number of around £6m as I recall in the accounts which have no detail as to what they are. I and others have speculated that they are "soft" loans from Mr Johnson. Since he stopped being a director any loans by him do not need to be disclosed and it is since that time that the numbers have gone up massively. Would expect that if it is from him then the loans would be repayable from any sales proceeds if MP sells....
 
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There is a massive Other Creditors number of around £6m as I recall in the accounts which have no detail as to what they are. I and others have speculated that they are "soft" loans from Mr Johnson. Since he stopped being a director any loans by him do not need to be disclosed and it is since that time that the numbers have gone up massively. Would expect that if it is from him then the loans would be repayable from any sales proceeds if MP sells....
It’s been established from reviewing past financials that the bulk, if not the entirety, of those other creditors is due to the Paliosi. We also established why that wasn’t included within the related party disclosures. The figure @ 6/23 in the 2023 financials, incidentally, was £4.7m rather than c£6m.
(EDIT - here’s the link to that discussion, starting here: https://whitereview.co.uk/community/threads/trfc-financials-year-ended-june-‘23.6070/#post-96347).

Going back to Johnson, it’s on public record that he converted a big chunk of his loan to equity before he sold his shares to the Paliosi, and later wrote off the remaining balance of his loan that hadn't been repaid in the meantime. There’s been no indication that Johnson later lent the club anything, certainly nothing substantial.

So it’s highly unlikely that there’s any legacy of PJ‘s that would or even could complicate a potential sale of the club now.
 
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dollar'sbloke

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Interesting, PJ had form for being a back seat driver throughout. It was clear to a blind man Corfe was never the owner as he could never support £10 million in debts. i went to some of his premises, he was a likeable rogue with a Jag and a big house but no millionaire. That ruse fell to pieces as PJ owned another club.

Palios too cannot be that wealthy, although I've heard Nicola had the bigger career. Even so there was nothing to stop PJ backing the new owner privately and critically with no strings attached to the club. In fact I viewed that sort of arrangement as highly likely from the start.

It makes little difference to any sale. The Indonesians can offer what they feel, after the implications of the books, is an investment value. Palios can either accept if his own personal commitments are satisfied, which of course involves unravelling of any debts in his name. It is anybody's guess if PJ's estate needs a return from Palios before disposal. (that would be a golden seal arrangement I always suspected)

My main point is that regardless of Palios's restrictions in being able to walk away. The Indonesians must surely be the new owners or have themselves an agreement that if a third party appears, they must be gain a worthwhile pay off. No one pays millions to have a powerless board seat to then potentially have no seat and just a worthless shareholding.

I would guess PJ's legacy if any, would protect the club primarily. Palios's legacy in time will be how much the non-football activities have grown to make us more sustainable.

As a footnote when PJ left for EFC, thirty years ago, his stepdaughters probably early twenties then were furious. They openly stated they would return the family fortune given the chance. Who knows although I suspect they have grown up and moved on. No idea if they are ever seen, they were quite noticeable red heads!
 

drwhoman

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What is the financial position of the Indonesians now? Do we know? This investment was probably a bit of fun at the time as it made no financial sense. They may be happy just to get shut? Do we know if they still have a close involvement now?
 
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What is the financial position of the Indonesians now? Do we know? This investment was probably a bit of fun at the time as it made no financial sense. They may be happy just to get shut? Do we know if they still have a close involvement now?
No change since last week afaik: https://whitereview.co.uk/community/threads/salford.6084/#post-97073 ;)

Joking aside, they still have just under a 25% stake and their man Lukito Wanandi is also still a director of the club.

Palios explained how their investment came about here: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/exclusive-mark-palios-reveals-how-16876095

He's always said the model he was trying to build involved bringing in multiple investors so I very much doubt Santini came on board to eventually take a controlling stake. But I’ve not seen anything to indicate what their thoughts are is if, as we now believe, MP is looking to dispose of his own controlling interest.
 
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There is a massive Other Creditors number of around £6m as I recall in the accounts which have no detail as to what they are. I and others have speculated that they are "soft" loans from Mr Johnson. Since he stopped being a director any loans by him do not need to be disclosed and it is since that time that the numbers have gone up massively. Would expect that if it is from him then the loans would be repayable from any sales proceeds if MP sells....
I think any complications are likely to be the requirement to refund Pailos' debt of circa £4.7 million, unless he has the means and is willing to simply write a substantial chunk off as Johnson did when he moved the club on, and the minority shareholding. The Indonesians will either have to be reimbursed on a transfer of ownership, or retain a minority stake. A prospective new owner may be uncomfortable with the presence of substantial minority shareholders, which could make a sale more difficult,

On a related point, the balance sheet per the latest accounts is actually pretty dire from the perspective of working capital. We have net current liabilities of £1.1 million in addition to the £4.7 million owed to Palios. For all the talk of sustainability, if Palios had not been putting in £500,000 - £1,000,000 in recent years we would have run out of cash some time ago. From his comments in the directors' report and the cash flow disclosures, it seems he put in circa £800,000 last year.
 
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It's quite normal for at least some of a shareholder's loan to be converted to equity prior to a disposal. Who knows what figures MP has in mind but I'd be surprised if any serious and suitable new investor wouldn't be able to negotiate a mutually acceptable price with him.
 
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