Pre season friendlies

[Ian]

He did also remind us of the awfully low promotion percentage over the years as a subtle reminder that we do not get too carried away!

 

[Boz]

He did also remind us of the awfully low promotion percentage over the years as a subtle reminder that we do not get too carried away!

It wasn't that subtle!

 

[drwhoman]

Talking about being carried away! Wrexham flew to eight away games last season, the only NL team to do so. They clearly operate on a different planet to other lower league teams!

 

[bring back the cowshed!]

Talking about being carried away! Wrexham flew to eight away games last season, the only NL team to do so. They clearly operate on a different planet to other lower league teams!

Clearly Financial Fair Play went out of the window a long time ago. With the money they spend on transfers, wages and travelling expenses, they must be running up substantial losses. Gates are up and they probably get a lot of sponsorship, but that can hardly cover all the costs. Are the Hollywood stars willing to bankroll them indefinitely?

In addition, the environmental impact is huge and the BBC report on this is damning.

Wrexham regularly flew to non-league matches

Wrexham's glamorous pre-season playing Premier League clubs in the US has caught the eye, but BBC Sport found they were also flying to domestic National League fixtures last season.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[ADD]

Clearly Financial Fair Play went out of the window a long time ago. With the money they spend on transfers, wages and travelling expenses, they must be running up substantial losses. Gates are up and they probably get a lot of sponsorship, but that can hardly cover all the costs. Are the Hollywood stars willing to bankroll them indefinitely?

In addition, the environmental impact is huge and the BBC report on this is damning.

Wrexham regularly flew to non-league matches

Wrexham's glamorous pre-season playing Premier League clubs in the US has caught the eye, but BBC Sport found they were also flying to domestic National League fixtures last season.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not sure they will be running up losses.... I read that they were budgetting for turnover this year of up to £20m. By contrast our last accounts said turnover was £5.5m.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

The June 2022 accounts show a loss last year of £2.9 million, in addition to capital expenditure of £5.6 million. Their turnover can't have been more than £10.2 million in that year, as they filed small company accounts.

There was an additional £4 million of short term creditors (!!) in addition to share purchases of £1.2 million, which is presumably the money Reynolds pumped in. For one twelve month period alone......

 

[O4anotherplayoff]

The directors report provides context for those figures, and also says turnover was £5.9m.

However the club has talked openly of hitting £20m turnover in the either the financial year just ended or over the coming season (I can’t remember which), mostly off the back of their commercial activities (EDIT - including the TV documentary).

Incidentally the directors’ report refers to an ambition of self-sufficiency. Like us! Different ways of skinning that particular cat.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

It depends a) how much of the projected increase in turnover actually materialises and b) how much they continue to spend, on both capital and revenue projects. They have the Racecourse Ground redevelopment to fund, in addition to their spending on players. At present they are the antithesis of self-sustaining.

It is ultimately profit that makes a business sustainable, not turnover.

 

[O4anotherplayoff]

Well obviously. But it’s not too difficult to see how their vision might happen, and I think they know what they’re doing.
Of course they might not achieve their ultimate aims, but they won’t be going bust any time soon.
No point stewing over them.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

They already are 'bust' in conventional business terms.

My statement is not 'obvious' to many, as countless businesses generate huge increases in turnover but still fail.

I don't think anybody is 'stewing' over them, so much as pointing out that their business model is not particularly healthy or desirable in the context of lower division football.

 

[O4anotherplayoff]

They’re simply making the necessary initial ‘investments’ for their (extremely lofty) aspirations to be delivered. As have we, albeit on a much more modest scale for less lofty ambitions. Look at our balance sheet, which is largely propped up by an interesting property revaluation. The paybacks to these ‘investments‘ come further down the line.

The resultant losses and the net liabilities incurred to 6/22 are underwritten by the owners, who can easily cover them and who themselves are clearly committed to the long term. There’s no reason to believe they’re jeopardising the club‘s existence or, if and when they do bail out, that they’d be offloading a basket case.

Their lack of desirability is much more rooted in the tribalism of football supporters than any reasonable critique of their business practices, including the model and how they’re going about executing it. Which, incidentally, is absolutely fine by me. Roll on September 2!

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

The resultant losses and the net liabilities incurred to 6/22 are underwritten by the owners, who can easily cover them and who themselves are clearly committed to the long term.

Yes, precisely. Because in the medium term at the very least their approach is not sustainable via a conventional business model, which is the point I was making.

As much as I am a critic of Palios, to compare his approach to that of Reynolds does him and many other similar owners a disservice. Wrexham have clearly used debt to fund player purchases and wages, which Palios would never do. Any substantial external investment we have received has been spent on infrastructure projects.

I don't accept your assertion that there is no ethical dimension to the excessive levels of debt and spending in the game, whether at PSG, Man City, Wrexham or anybody else.

 

[O4anotherplayoff]

As Tranmere used debt to secure two of our seven(?) ever promotions, before PJ graciously agreed to write it off.

The points is, owners’ debt is easily converted to owners’ equity and, in Wrexham’s case, if they need to do that to meet EFL requirements, either current or under any future regulator, I‘m sure they both can and will at the appropriate time. This is not another Southend, Bury, Macc in the making here.

As for this..

I don't accept your assertion that there is no ethical dimension to the excessive levels of debt and spending in the game, whether at PSG, Man City, Wrexham or anybody else.

God knows where you’ve imagined I’ve made that assertion.
I’ll leave you to your stewing.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

God knows where you’ve imagined I’ve made that assertion.
I’ll leave you to your stewing.

It is the clear implication of everything you have argued. Wrexham's level of debt and spending at this level is equivalent to that of PSG or Man City at higher levels. The principles are the same.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

The points is, owners’ debt is easily converted to owners’ equity and, in Wrexham’s case, if they need to do that to meet EFL requirements, either current or under any future regulator, I‘m sure they both can and will at the appropriate time. This is not another Southend, Bury, Macc in the making here.

Yes, so the supporters of any indebted club have to assume their owner is acting in good faith and will be actually be in a position to write-off the debt at some unforeseen point in the future ?

How do you know Reynolds or any other club chairman is not another Ron Martin or Bruce Osterman in the making ? Most owners have good intentions when they acquire a club. My point is that the balance sheet of a club should be sufficiently strong - or at least, not so weak - that the supporters are not dependent on the goodwill of a single individual who may, or may not, be of sufficient wealth and goodwill to meet his commitments.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

As Tranmere used debt to secure two of our seven(?) ever promotions, before PJ graciously agreed to write it off.

Yes, six million pounds of debt accrued over 27 years, compared to four million pounds of debt accrued in twelve months at Wrexham.

It is a question of degree.

 

[O4anotherplayoff]

It is the clear implication of everything you have argued. Wrexham's level of debt and spending at this level is equivalent to that of PSG or Man City at higher levels. The principles are the same.

I’ve no need imply anything, the principles are as I’ve explained. Significant initial up front investment was/is needed, with paybacks coming later. Those investments are still being made and initial paybacks are apparently starting to come through. But, at this stage in proceedings, the exact mix of financing behind that upfront expenditure between owner debt and owner equity is largely moot.

Yes, so the supporters of any indebted club have to assume their owner is acting in good faith and will be actually be in a position to write-off the debt at some unforeseen point in the future ?

No. Supporters don’t “have to assume“ anything, they can and should scratch the surface.

How do you know Reynolds or any other club chairman is not another Ron Martin or Bruce Osterman in the making ? Most owners have good intentions when they acquire a club.

Nobody knows the future with absolute certainty - sorry for any confusion. But you don't have to scratch the surface too deep to be able to dismiss comparisons with Ron the Con or a naive San Francisco wannabe who was shown to be out of his depth within weeks (if not days!).

My point is that the balance sheet of a club should be sufficiently strong - or at least, not so weak - that the supporters are not dependent on the goodwill of a single individual who may, or may not, be of sufficient wealth and goodwill to meet his commitments.

I agree. Unlike in the VNL, the boundaries around what is and isn’t “sufficiently strong” are currently defined by the EFL - albeit probably inadequately - and hopefully, in the not too distant, more robustly defined by an independent regulator. I don’t know how well that currently does, or will, align with your idea of “sufficiently strong”. But I’m as sure as I can be (that better?) that neither the EFL or any new requirements brought in by a regulator will pose any significant problems for Wrexham in the foreseeable.

Yes, six million pounds of debt accrued over 27 years, compared to four million pounds of debt accrued in twelve months at Wrexham.

It is a question of degree.

It’s at least as much a question of industry inflation too. Which, in football’s case, has far exceeded inflation in normal life. The days of a hamper man bankrolling a club to the brink of the EPL, signing a world class striker for whatever the current going rate of £250k is in normal life, for example, are long gone.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

Ron Martin took Southend to the Championship initially and gave them some of the best years of their history, so it is never clear which owners are responsible and which ones will leave a club in dire straits. They can actually be both, within an extended timeframe.

Peter Johnson's spending was large in the context of our history, but I maintain that even accounting for inflation it was not of the same magnitude as Reynolds is proposing at Wrexham.

 

[dollar'sbloke]

Whilst not hoping for them to succeed, I am quite content if they do, others clearly are convincing themselves this is doomed because they desperately want it too.

I remain in the dark about who these two are, but I do know their financial profile is massive. They have very deep pockets probably deeper than PJ's £200 million which pretty well peaked the day he entered PP (maybe he now sees it as the straw that broke the camel's back in his ascendancy). PJ btw wrote off £10 million in hard cash and the same again in waived interest as it was significant as it has become today.

I also suspect the Two were very careful in selecting WFC. PJ famously gave up on the Wirral after seven years and gates struggling to top 10k. In 1977 both clubs were on the crest of a wave in the third tier, Kingy topped the table on a shoestring while Wrexham were building a head of steam in europe as well as the league which they won.

Tranmere collapsed leading to relegation and the local board in N Wales could not handle such heights. Critically Tranmere attracted 3,000 but Wrexham twice as much and achieving 10k the next year.

This outfit can afford to buy promotion again this year and invest on a bigger ground they will fill soon. I'd expect promotion gates over 10k without much difficulty all while this apparently savvy lot are learning on the job.

Palios would find sustainability an easier goal if had double the gates and the whole N Wales coast behind him.

 

[Am on mobile]

Dennis and Norris on the bench with Jolly i like that get some minutes in the lags