• Nigel Adkins has been given the Tranmere job on a permanent basis signing until the end of the 25/26 season. Continue the discussion here.

Wycombe away

Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
13,905
Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Manager
John King
I don't know where this idea has come from that Mellon would be unable to recruit in League Two.

We struggled to recruit last summer, because we could not compete financially in the League One transfer market. However, the following are the key players that Mellon recruited last season, in League Two:

Ellis
Monthe
Nelson
Perkins
Pringle
Morris
Caprice
Banks
McCullough

Which of the above players was not good enough in League Two last season ? (and before you say Caprice, he was actually fine at that level)
 
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
769
Player
ian goodison
you make a good point RLC but even with those players we could only manage to finish 7th to be fair if it wasn,t for play-offs we would still be in the nat. league,
 

Boz

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2005
Messages
8,922
Player
Iain Hume
I attended this game with friends who don’t support Rovers. They felt there wasn’t much difference between the sides and on another day, we might have got something. The stats never give the whole picture.

I’m unsure that the switch of forwards made that much of an impact Cook didn’t have much effect, but although he chases and presses, Ferrier didn’t transform things either. It was right to make the sub and maybe going forward the Ferrier-Vaughan pairing will be the better option, particularly as we’re not getting much quality ball in the box on this showing. Micky’s reluctance to try another change when Wycombe regained the lead and were looking comfortable puzzled me.

I don’t think next season in L2 will be easy, there are teams with money there who’ve outbid us this season. The out of favour players like Payne and Nelson may get moved on, the loanees will go back and others, Banks Jennings and Gilmour are out of contract and probably won’t stick around. So a major re-building exercise. It doesn’t help that there doesn’t seem to be a great deal of team spirit at present. While I’d keep MM if he wanted to stay and do the rebuild, it may be he feels it’s time to move on
 

bigmart

bigmart
Member
Joined
29 Jul 2009
Messages
7,155
Player
Ian Muir
There are always outliers like Wycombe (whose budget is still bigger than ours by the way) but the vast majority of clubs in this division and at every level are performing in accordance with their budget.

Accrington were promoted automatically from League Two and did not have three seasons in non league football, so had a stronger squad than us to start with. All of the other struggling clubs - Rochdale, Wimbledon, ourselves - are the clubs with low budgets, with the exception of Southend and Bolton who have been mismanaged off the pitch. The vast majority of clubs at the top end of the table - Sunderland, Portsmouth, Ipswich, Rotherham, Doncaster - are the clubs with high budgets. Wycombe are the exception that proves the rule.

We have not only faced the problem of having a restricted budget. A lot of that budget was taken up by players who were of National League or League Two standard at best and were never going to be good enough for this level. However, we could not move those players on and sign twenty new ones, so we were hampered in our ability to compete to begin with. We had to use what little remained of our wage budget, after accounting for those players, to compete for League One standard players, which was obviously impossible judging by the quality of the players we were able to sign last summer. When additional money was made available in January due to the cup run, we were finally able to bring in some League One standard players - Clarke, Woodyard, Vaughan. However, that was too little, too late.

So, yes, the budget and the impact of back to back promotions are the reasons we are likely to be relegated.
But for the budget we have had this season we should not be that far adrift of wimbledon, Rochdale and Accrington etc, it has not helped that less than 6 no the of signing payne, ray and Nelson they have been frozen out.

out of interest now much do you think our budget is ?
 

ONIGP

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2018
Messages
1,459
Player
Eddie Bishop
There are a myriad of things that have led to our current position; many out of the club's control entirely (the overall financial position, injuries etc.), some in MP's control (where the limited funds are spent - investment v infrastructure v playing staff), some in MM's control (team, formation, training). There have been a number of calculated risks/investments that have been made this season, none of which look foolish in hindsight, but a large number have not paid off.

Budgets needed to be considered BEFORE we knew we were promoted to L1 which impacted who were offered contracts - after being bitten by the departures of Cook, Norwood and Norburn this seemed sensible. In terms of recruitment we were always on the back foot due to the late promotion and budget so there was always an element of risk with our signings and loanees. Was anybody really criticizing the signing of Ray at the time (Crewe captain and the right age), CBJ (played L1 regularly and ex EPL), Maddox/RHM (EPL and International youngsters), Payne (used to this level)? Ok one or two seemed more of a risk than others - Ponticelli being the one that springs to mind - but there was nothing wrong with a punt or 2 in the situation we were in as part of a (necessarily) hasty recruitment plan.

Leaving aside any criticisms of MM and MJ regarding training methods and player motivation, which I constantly hear but won't even comment on since I see no evidence, there are a couple of things that haven't helped our cause on the pitch. The first one is injuries that have been at an unprecedented level in my memory. There aren't many of the team that was expected to start the season who have avoided a lay off which has made it very difficult to select an XI with any consistency of either personnel or formation. I also think that our reasonable start to the season has actually come back to haunt us, certainly in terms of expectation with some of the fan base. We seem to forget that we couldn't string back to back wins then and that a number of our points were taken via last gasp "miracles" (Burton, Rotherham) while the Coventry win was wonderful but freakish. Remove these points and we would have been where, in all rights, we should have been for a team with 2 back to back promotions who crept into L1 in the last qualifying place.

It is only now, at the tail end of the season, that there is a full squad to choose from and to try and gel into a "team". Add to that the new faces of Cook, Vaughan and Clarke - who nobody was complaining about when we signed them - and it is one hell of a job for MM to a) put together the best functioning team, and b) not upset players and fans alike by those who are left out as part of that process.

I'm sure that MP and MM could have done a better job this season and that mistakes were made but I'm also sure that this was the case in the previous 2 seasons as well. As long as you learn from mistakes that's absolutely fine and applies to employees/managers/owners/investors in any walk of life.

Our position at the moment is disappointing. However, it is easy to forget where we came from; not just the NL but the terminal decline that was being suffered by a rotting club for a number of seasons before we dropped from L1. I think a sense of perspective is lacking at the moment and that there is a need to lay "blame". Personally I think that we are more a victim of circumstances than poor management and that the club is not going backwards despite (what looks like) an inevitable drop into L2. I find some comments, elsewhere, that we of will drop through L2 into the NFL unbelievable since it shows a complete lack of understanding how the management of our club has improved over the past 5 years.
 

bigmart

bigmart
Member
Joined
29 Jul 2009
Messages
7,155
Player
Ian Muir
Onigp, some fair and valid points, however we have also signed a number of players with poor injury records, potter and woods amongst them which were aware of money. Also the use of Gilmour has been very disappointing, the lad has potential but rarely gets a look in.

When we go down and for me it is a when rather than if I don't think we will go down again but unless recruitment is good in not that sure we will challenge to go back up.
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
13,905
Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Manager
John King
But for the budget we have had this season we should not be that far adrift of wimbledon, Rochdale and Accrington etc, it has not helped that less than 6 no the of signing payne, ray and Nelson they have been frozen out.

out of interest now much do you think our budget is ?
Wimbledon and Rochdale are both well established clubs at this level, so it is difficult to quantify how far behind them we 'should' be. All three clubs are struggling. I know our budget is about 2.5 million from attending the TROSC meeting with Palios earlier in the season. That is very low for the level and includes our spending on players in contract from lower levels that were never going to be good enough in this division.
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
13,905
Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Manager
John King
I attended this game with friends who don’t support Rovers. They felt there wasn’t much difference between the sides and on another day, we might have got something. The stats never give the whole picture.

I’m unsure that the switch of forwards made that much of an impact Cook didn’t have much effect, but although he chases and presses, Ferrier didn’t transform things either. It was right to make the sub and maybe going forward the Ferrier-Vaughan pairing will be the better option, particularly as we’re not getting much quality ball in the box on this showing. Micky’s reluctance to try another change when Wycombe regained the lead and were looking comfortable puzzled me.

I don’t think next season in L2 will be easy, there are teams with money there who’ve outbid us this season. The out of favour players like Payne and Nelson may get moved on, the loanees will go back and others, Banks Jennings and Gilmour are out of contract and probably won’t stick around. So a major re-building exercise. It doesn’t help that there doesn’t seem to be a great deal of team spirit at present. While I’d keep MM if he wanted to stay and do the rebuild, it may be he feels it’s time to move on
I thought we offered more threat in behind after Ferrier came on and Vaughan looked more comfortable after the change. Our play prior to that had been too predictable, with long balls to Cook which failed to turn their defence round and made life easy for them.
 

ONIGP

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2018
Messages
1,459
Player
Eddie Bishop
Onigp, some fair and valid points, however we have also signed a number of players with poor injury records, potter and woods amongst them which were aware of money. Also the use of Gilmour has been very disappointing, the lad has potential but rarely gets a look in.

When we go down and for me it is a when rather than if I don't think we will go down again but unless recruitment is good in not that sure we will challenge to go back up.
Fair points; Potter and Woods definitely fall into the "risk" category. Regarding Gilmour everybody has their favourites and our squad is large and, IMO, there are a lot of players who are "much of a muchness" in terms of quality. Personally, I'm disappointed that Jennings isn't getting more game time but don't think that individual selections have been the major cause of our league position. On the playing side the biggest disappointment to me has been the form of Scott Davies.
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
13,905
Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Manager
John King
The punts we took on players with poor injury records was largely dictated by financial constraints. We needed at least some League One experience in the squad, but the players available to us - Potter, Woods - were those that were unwanted elsewhere due to fitness issues.
 

bigmart

bigmart
Member
Joined
29 Jul 2009
Messages
7,155
Player
Ian Muir
Wimbledon and Rochdale are both well established clubs at this level, so it is difficult to quantify how far behind them we 'should' be. All three clubs are struggling. I know our budget is about 2.5 million from attending the TROSC meeting with Palios earlier in the season. That is very low for the level and includes our spending on players in contract from lower levels that were never going to be good enough in this division.
Our budget was more than 2.5 million
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
13,905
Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Manager
John King
Our budget was more than 2.5 million
No it was not.

Last summer it was £2.5 million. That was added to in January when the new players arrived, but players also left the club in that period, so we still be well below the average for the division.

I saw the budget projections which Palios showed at the TROSC AGM, which forecast a £3.5 million budget in two or three years if we were re-established in League One.
 

drwhoman

Member
Joined
30 Jun 2008
Messages
2,670
There has been a lot of disappointment expressed recently but sacking Mellon will change nothing now. The simple fact is that we were promoted too soon and at the same time we lost the man who really made it possible, Norwood. I would like to think that there will be a miracle but maybe we will be more comfortable in League Two for the moment. As I have said before, Rovers have regularly bounced between what is now League Two and League One in the past. The glory days of twenty or so years ago were an outlier in terms of Rovers overall history.
 

ONIGP

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2018
Messages
1,459
Player
Eddie Bishop
There has been a lot of disappointment expressed recently but sacking Mellon will change nothing now. The simple fact is that we were promoted too soon and at the same time we lost the man who really made it possible, Norwood. I would like to think that there will be a miracle but maybe we will be more comfortable in League Two for the moment. As I have said before, Rovers have regularly bounced between what is now League Two and League One in the past. The glory days of twenty or so years ago were an outlier in terms of Rovers overall history.
This is true and the reality, more so now than 20 years ago, is that it is almost impossible to survive at Championship level without major backing and investment. That backing seems to come with a desire to reach the promised land of the EPL. For many even reaching that land of milk and honey can turn sour. I know a lot of Burnley fans who are becoming increasing disillusioned with the EPL. Despite the incredible achievement of getting there and staying there, the novelty of playing the Liverpools and Uniteds has long worn off. They know that every season is going to be a struggle with a target of 40 points and that they will lose more games than they win. They look back fondly to the days in the EPL, including the struggles, and further back to the old First Division. Local lad Andy Payton will forever remain more revered than any of the players who have graced the EPL.

So In guess it's down to what you want from your football team. After the disaster of dropping out of the EPL I was just happy to still have a football team. From that position L2 is great and reaching L1 so quickly was amazing. In the long term I'd settle for an existence between L2 and L1 with an aspiration to be challenging for Championship football providing the club were "doing things right". That way you will have seasons where you win more than you lose, and even some glorious ones, and really appreciate them when you get them. Football is black and white - only 50% of the teams can win any particular match and there will always be losers as well as winners. Unfortunately, many supporters remember the high points of their history and see that as their "rightful place" in the hierarchy. If this was the case I suspect we would end up with 40 teams in the EPL, 35 in the Championship with nearly all the rest in L1! Therein lies the innate disappointment of the football fan - not even 50% are happy with their lot, it's probably less than 25%!
 

bigmart

bigmart
Member
Joined
29 Jul 2009
Messages
7,155
Player
Ian Muir
No it was not.

Last summer it was £2.5 million. That was added to in January when the new players arrived, but players also left the club in that period, so we still be well below the average for the division.

I saw the budget projections which Palios showed at the TROSC AGM, which forecast a £3.5 million budget in two or three years if we were re-established in League One.
The budget was 2.8 million which is 800 grand more than accrington
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
13,905
Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Manager
John King
The budget was 2.8 million which is 800 grand more than accrington
That probably includes the January spending. The average for the division is 4.5 million, so it is no surprise we are struggling. I doubt there is a club aside from Accrington that has a lower budget than us and they have a more settled squad at this level and have not recently been playing non league football.
 

ONIGP

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2018
Messages
1,459
Player
Eddie Bishop
The budget was 2.8 million which is 800 grand more than accrington
Using Accrington, particularly under Coleman, is a comparison to complete overperformance to be fair. I would be surprised if there is a club anywhere on planet Earth, at the moment, whose relative position compared to finances is better. While we should be ambitious and strive for excellence we shouldn't kick ourselves for not being in the top 0.1%. It is just bloody unfortunate that they are in the same division as we are.
 

drwhoman

Member
Joined
30 Jun 2008
Messages
2,670
Using Accrington, particularly under Coleman, is a comparison to complete overperformance to be fair. I would be surprised if there is a club anywhere on planet Earth, at the moment, whose relative position compared to finances is better. While we should be ambitious and strive for excellence we shouldn't kick ourselves for not being in the top 0.1%. It is just bloody unfortunate that they are in the same division as we are.
Wise words ONIGP. The highs of the Manning and Dyson days in the late 1960s. Scoring goals for fun in the old Division Four and yet in the same Division, the narrow squeak against Exeter in the 1980s!
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
13,905
Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Manager
John King
Using Accrington, particularly under Coleman, is a comparison to complete overperformance to be fair. I would be surprised if there is a club anywhere on planet Earth, at the moment, whose relative position compared to finances is better. While we should be ambitious and strive for excellence we shouldn't kick ourselves for not being in the top 0.1%. It is just bloody unfortunate that they are in the same division as we are.
Exactly. You have to compare our performance to the expected norm, not exceptional cases.

If Accrington are the yardstick, every other team in the division is massively underperforming.
 
Joined
1 Oct 2005
Messages
5,720
Player
Alan King, Barry Dyson
you make a good point RLC but even with those players we could only manage to finish 7th to be fair if it wasn,t for play-offs we would still be in the nat. league,
Not true, KTF. If the NL had had no play-offs, we'd have gone up automatically as runners-up to Lincoln City a year earlier. With a year less in the NL and an extra year in League Two, we would almost certainly have had a more competitive squad last season and might well have got automatic promotion.

Talking of the play-offs, the system robbed us of a return to the Championship in 2004/5 under Brian Little, when we finished third behind Hull and Luton. From memory, I think last season is only the second time we've benefited from the play-offs. The other time was when we beat Bolton to get into "the First Division" under Johnny King.
 
Last edited:
Top