The Chief has gone :(

[SonkORLY?]

In Selling anything the vendor wants as big a price as possible, house, car, football club, spare spy in the camp, stooge, wooden leg - whatever, people still want the best price they can get. Once again you miss the point.
Getting rid of Chief "could " be a mistake you said, again you miss the point!!!

Bootle you are out of your depth. Football league clubs averagely spend 85% of revenue on wages, and almost always do so without a sufficient surplus of revenue to sustainably manage the rest of the business. It need not neccesserily be a moral/ethical statement to argue that footballers are paid too much. We can't single handedly change this sad fact, but in the interests of actually having a club to support (and no I'm not being melodramatic here) I'd be quite happy to see us operate with a relativley conservative turnover:wage ratio.

Ultimately there is, in fact, little financial incentive to do otherwise. One could argue that, in attempting to minimize operating losses, PJ is 'sprucing the club up' more than he would be by disregarding the financial impact of a failed shot at promotion, or whatever it is that you had in mind - I mean this both in terms of his own personal investment and in terms of the degree to which such a 'project' would actually add value to the club/make it easier to sell. I think you underestimate the cost of the former and overvalue the effectiveness of the latter.

You can talk all you like about attendances, but they have always been low. Even during our "glory years" we did not exceed an average attendance of 10,000. Using low attendances to justify PJ and the clubs recent turn of fortunes is acting as a smoke screen for a wider issue - PJ's decision making and attitude.

RTID, attendence trends over time are relative: 10000 is an arbitrary figure. In 04-05 we averaged 9004, in 09/10 we averaged 5670 - that's a 37% hit. In the Premier League, the ratio of TV moneyperating revenue is more heavily weighted towards the former than the latter, while in the lower leagues, the opposite is true. So you can understand why PJ is so concerned about the rate at which our attendences have declined over the past 5 years, and you can understand why cuts to the playing budget are subsequently slashed. It is much more difficult however to understand the shortsightedness of PJ's attempts to resolve this problem; sacking Moore was ridiculous, appointing Barnes was never ever going to bring people to PP in the way he naively expected, and now we're stuck with a physio and a tiny backroom team. As fans we need to accept the reality that big cuts are inevitable, but we have a right to question the logic in relieving an experienced and well-liked coach of his duties while daring to enter a new season with a physio at the helm.

I wonder if Whitmore is available[-o<

Russell Howarth is out of contract!

 

[roverstillidie]

RTID, attendence trends over time are relative: 10000 is an arbitrary figure. In 04-05 we averaged 9004, in 09/10 we averaged 5670 - that's a 37% hit. In the Premier League, the ratio of TV moneyperating revenue is more heavily weighted towards the former than the latter, while in the lower leagues, the opposite is true. So you can understand why PJ is so concerned about the rate at which our attendences have declined over the past 5 years, and you can understand why cuts to the playing budget are subsequently slashed. It is much more difficult however to understand the shortsightedness of PJ's attempts to resolve this problem; sacking Moore was ridiculous, appointing Barnes was never ever going to bring people to PP in the way he naively expected, and now we're stuck with a physio and a tiny backroom team. As fans we need to accept the reality that big cuts are inevitable, but we have a right to question the logic in relieving an experienced and well-liked coach of his duties while daring to enter a new season with a physio at the helm.

You should be getting over 10,000 when your nearly in the Premiership. Attendances have averaged around 5,500 - the 04-05 season was our one succesful season at league 1 level and we also had a good cup run. Using 04-05 as an attendance benchmark is a bit dodgy as it was an unusual season, but shows what could be achieved with a bit of investment.

PJ's business is not actually doing that bad recently and he could invest a bit of money if he wanted to, instead he just seems to be disinterested in the club.

I think the club lacks any kind of ambition what so ever - look at Scunthorpe they have lower attendances than us yet they get into the championship with some astute signings and a chairman who's willing to invest a few £100,000 in decent players.

We seem to be accepting a relegation fight is inevitable without actually trying to do anything else - a change in attitude which has only taken place since PJ took over.

 

[bigmart]

We do have a keeper in Joe Collister

 

[SonkORLY?]

You should be getting over 10,000 when your nearly in the Premiership. Attendances have averaged around 5,500 - the 04-05 season was our one succesful season at league 1 level and we also had a good cup run. Using 04-05 as an attendance benchmark is a bit dodgy as it was an unusual season, but shows what could be achieved with a bit of investment.

PJ's business is not actually doing that bad recently and he could invest a bit of money if he wanted to, instead he just seems to be disinterested in the club.

I think the club lacks any kind of ambition what so ever - look at Scunthorpe they have lower attendances than us yet they get into the championship with some astute signings and a chairman who's willing to invest a few £100,000 in decent players.

We seem to be accepting a relegation fight is inevitable without actually trying to do anything else - a change in attitude which has only taken place since PJ took over.

lol why would he invest a 6 figure sum into signing players in his position? He's never going to recoup any sort of aspirational investment - come on now, ffs.

You absolutely cannot blame PJ for not being interested/failing to aimlessly throw money at the club. You cannot blame him for cutting the staff budget. You can however blame him for certain decisions he makes re:employment - notably the sacking of RM, appointment of Barnes, appointment of Les (?), sacking of Chief.

 

[roverstillidie]

lol why would he invest £100,000 into signing players when he's trying to sell the business and has no aspirational interest in it whatsoever? come on now, ffs.

To make the club a more attractive proposition to a potential buyer, it's not rocket science, ffs.

 

[roverstillidie]

We do have a keeper in Joe Collister

We need more than one and he's only 17.

 

[SonkORLY?]

To make the club a more attractive proposition to a potential buyer, it's not rocket science, ffs.

I've already explained why this makes absolutely no sense towards the latter part of my paragraph directed towards Bootle. Your priotities concerning Tranmere are very different from those likely to be held by a random investor who may be potentially interested in the club. The presence of a shiney new £200,000 striker in the squad won't suddenly make the club an attractive investment proposition, and if he's earning a wedge he might even serve to be a discouragement to any potentially interested parties. Aspirational investment into the club does not represent value for PJ obv that's why he hasn't done it.

re: You continuing to bang on about the magic 10k number. This is still a completely arbitrary figure. Matchday revenue constitute a large % of our annual revenue; therefore; attendence drops, revenue drops, wage budget drops. Dead simple.

 

[roverstillidie]

You absolutely cannot blame PJ for not being interested/failing to aimlessly throw money at the club. You cannot blame him for cutting the staff budget. You can however blame him for certain decisions he makes re:employment - notably the sacking of RM, appointment of Barnes, appointment of Les (?), sacking of Chief.

Who else should we blame for cutting the budgets? Santa Claus?

I'm not suggesting he throws money aimlessly at the club just enough to make us competitive in league 1, which isn't that much. If PJ had some ambition or wanted to make the club more sellable he would have at least kept Allison on as part of the coaching staff, as we are more likely to achieve some form of success that way. He's running the club down before your eyes and you say we can't blame him?!

PJ could at least make an attempt to keep the club relatively safe in league 1 rather then seeing how far he can cut before we go down or bust.

 

[roverstillidie]

I've already explained why this makes absolutely no sense

I'll do it simply, if you want to buy a football club do you:

A. Want to buy a relatively secure club with foundations to build upon and a steady support?

or do you:

B. Want to buy a club constantly fighting relegation, or having just been relegated in disarray, with falling attendances, no decent players as their out of contract and a physio as manager?

If you have any sense you go for A, PJ seems to be doing the opposite. If he wants to sell the club, he should invest some money or at least show a bit of common sense to keep the club safe and attractive to a potential buyer. If he doesn't want to sell the club he should pull his finger out and show a bit of ambition.

 

[Boz]

Interesting arguments. What puzzles me is that our attendances have stabilised and apparently our season ticket sales are up for 2010/2011, while we've got rid of a number of experienced players, presumably higher earners. How come there isn't the money to pay Chief, who's wages are unlikely to be mammoth?

 

[roverstillidie]

How come there isn't the money to pay Chief, who's wages are unlikely to be mammoth?

God knows, perhaps PJ fell for one of those internet scams were you give money to a Nigerian prince...

 

[The Bootle Rover]

Same Old Same Old

No Sonko, youve not answered The Bootle Rover. As usual you've wittered on about a few relatively minor points yet again. And they are all really minor points until we know....

Where the club is heading?
What is the owners ambition?
What policy does he want to pursue?
How does he intend to achieve that?

Think about these things, seriously please. Stop making excuses and throwing up smoke screens.

What we are lacking as a club is leadership and direction - these can only come from the current owner, everything else is just so much s**t until this is openly discused/decided/communicated honestly.

All the points are against your attitude and rather confused opinion. Rovers til I die hits nails on heads....but we still need to know the owners intentions. Is that so hard to understand?

I still believe youre a spy in the camp whose job is to spread meek acceptance.

 

[Ian]

I think this thread has been blown completely out of proportion. So we got rid of The Chief, it's not the be all and end all. There's a lot we don't know. What impact he had on the squad (not much it seems if he was coaching the strikers!) and how much the club were paying him. A club like ours with no money to spend are at times allowed to be shrewd. It may simply be a case of running the club a bit more astutely and cutting in certain areas they think they can afford to cut.

 

[SonkORLY?]

Interesting arguments. What puzzles me is that our attendances have stabilised and apparently our season ticket sales are up for 2010/2011, while we've got rid of a number of experienced players, presumably higher earners. How come there isn't the money to pay Chief, who's wages are unlikely to be mammoth?

Ah that's promising news, though not wholly unsurprising. I've posted before that I didn't think our attendence would drop much lower than it is atm. Last season we spent 83% of our turnover on wages, which is pretty average, but given the nature of PJ's relationship with the club I guess he'll still be looking to bring this down however possible. In this case it seems that he simply decided that having two coaches was a luxuary we couldn't afford and that paying Chief's wages - however minimal - couldn't be justified. Quite an inept thought process, but with given information (and what we know of PJ!) it's one that seems likely.

No Sonko, youve not answered The Bootle Rover. As usual you've wittered on about a few relatively minor points yet again. And they are all really minor points until we know....

Where the club is heading?
What is the owners ambition?
What policy does he want to pursue?
How does he intend to achieve that?

Think about these things, seriously please. Stop making excuses and throwing up smoke screens.

What we are lacking as a club is leadership and direction - these can only come from the current owner, everything else is just so much s**t until this is openly discused/decided/communicated honestly.

All the points are against your attitude and rather confused opinion. Rovers til I die hits nails on heads....but we still need to know the owners intentions. Is that so hard to understand?

I still believe youre a spy in the camp whose job is to spread meek acceptance.

If you have half an ounce of intelligence then the direction that the club is going in under PJ should really be blatently obvious. If you speak to me like an idiot I will treat you as one. Hope you find this helpful.

Where the club is heading? Hopefully we'll stay in League 1.
What is the owners ambition? To sell the club whilst minimising operating losses until this goal is reached.
What policy does he want to pursue? See above
How does he intend to achieve that? By cutting outgoings

If you have an issue with anything I've said then this debate would be best served if you were to bring it up specifically as I have done with you.

Also you're right to say that the club lacks those things, but more than anything it lacks ££££££££££££

I'll do it simply, if you want to buy a football club do you:

A. Want to buy a relatively secure club with foundations to build upon and a steady support?

or do you:

B. Want to buy a club constantly fighting relegation, or having just been relegated in disarray, with falling attendances, no decent players as their out of contract and a physio as manager?

If you have any sense you go for A, PJ seems to be doing the opposite. If he wants to sell the club, he should invest some money or at least show a bit of common sense to keep the club safe and attractive to a potential buyer. If he doesn't want to sell the club he should pull his finger out and show a bit of ambition.

Let me offer you two different options to consider. You are an investor with no emotional attatchment to either club in this example.

Club A are 12th in League One, with a dramatically high revenue:turnover ratio.

Club B are 12th in League Two, with an impressively low revenue:turnover ratio.

If you believe A to be the more attractive proposition then you're wrong. Seems an apt moment to remind everyone that we are a League 2 sized club.

 

[amplesou]

The way things are shaping up player wise for next season ,i don,t think the coaching staff or players will cope with league 1 !

just as they did,nt at the begining of last season .

Why because the squad is stripped again so it will be eleventh hour emergency sighnings again!
Alan mahon out till november why does that matter he won,t be first choice even when fit for the riggers of this division !

i think we are going to get battered in div one unless some one wises up and that includes lp !

les get back off your holiday and wise up and get real !

if you don,t you won,t last five minutes in the job.

Seen it all and memorised it all before and that is the difference here ?

listen to the bulls--t John barnes was coming out with last pre season ,les your doing the same !!!!!
sorry but the less money you have the more real you have to be in this instance !
no airy fairy thinking?

 

[bigmart]

Les has been back off holiday for a while now and is trying to put together a squad for the season, more signings will be coming in shortly so i dont think there is a need to panic.

 

[roverstillidie]

Ah that's promising news, though not wholly unsurprising. I've posted before that I didn't think our attendence would drop much lower than it is atm. Last season we spent 83% of our turnover on wages, which is pretty average, but given the nature of PJ's relationship with the club I guess he'll still be looking to bring this down however possible. In this case it seems that he simply decided that having two coaches was a luxuary we couldn't afford and that paying Chief's wages - however minimal - couldn't be justified. Quite an inept thought process, but with given information (and what we know of PJ!) it's one that seems likely.



If you have half an ounce of intelligence then the direction that the club is going in under PJ should really be blatently obvious. If you speak to me like an idiot I will treat you as one. Hope you find this helpful.

Where the club is heading? Hopefully we'll stay in League 1.
What is the owners ambition? To sell the club whilst minimising operating losses until this goal is reached.
What policy does he want to pursue? See above
How does he intend to achieve that? By cutting outgoings

If you have an issue with anything I've said then this debate would be best served if you were to bring it up specifically as I have done with you.

Also you're right to say that the club lacks those things, but more than anything it lacks ££££££££££££



Let me offer you two different options to consider. You are an investor with no emotional attatchment to either club in this example.

Club A are 12th in League One, with a dramatically high revenue:turnover ratio.

Club B are 12th in League Two, with an impressively low revenue:turnover ratio.

If you believe A to be the more attractive proposition then you're wrong. Seems an apt moment to remind everyone that we are a League 2 sized club.

Why do you always miss the point? The way PJ is acting we wont be any of the above you have claimed - that's the problem. We wont be safe in league 1 if he continues to cut - that's the issue! I agree with his ambition but he's not going to sell the club if he minimises losses so much that the club becomes far too unattractive for a potential buyer to even consider.

You don't sell a car by taking the wheels and engine off 1st! - that's what PJ is doing to the club.

We're a league 2 sized club now according to ORLY, when we were challenging for the play offs 2 years ago? Our average attendance gets us into league 1, our stadium is league 1 - at least and perhaps most prominently our league position gets us into league 1. The only way we will become a league 2 sized club is if PJ continues to cut.

In the current economic climate PJ has to accept finding a buyer is very unlikely, so making dramatic cuts will just make the club harder to sell when economic conditions improve as there is a very good chance that we will be in free fall.

I can appreciate that PJ is trying to cut his losses, but doing it in such a manner that it comprimises his long term goal and the club itself is just stupid.

 

[roverstillidie]

I think this thread has been blown completely out of proportion. So we got rid of The Chief, it's not the be all and end all. There's a lot we don't know. What impact he had on the squad (not much it seems if he was coaching the strikers!) and how much the club were paying him. A club like ours with no money to spend are at times allowed to be shrewd. It may simply be a case of running the club a bit more astutely and cutting in certain areas they think they can afford to cut.

At least this thread is still in english, other fansites decend into text talk this far down - which is one the best features of this site.

Running the club more astutely is fine, but the problem is PJ's rash decision making suggests that this isn't the case.

 

[The Bootle Rover]

Copying the wrong ones...

Ok Sonko, have it your way

An investor with no attachment to the club is what your talking about.....

People with the same mentality as The Glazers at Man U or Hicks and Gillette at Liverpool - these fit perfectly your INVESTOR [PERSON WHOSE ONLY WISH IS TO MAKE MONEY] with no attachment to the club [self explanatory I think]

But isnt that what we already have? And thats the problem.

Why else would he get involved with Everton as well, unless of course he is an investor with no attachment to either club!!!!!! Seems to fit him down to the ground.

Meantime TRFC are stuck with this individual ripping them off, again, how much has he put in and how much has he had out. Bet hes in profit and much wants more.

 

[Rockford's Love Child]

While accepting Sonko's basic statement regarding Johnson's future intentions for the club, the sacking of Allison doesn't even make sense from a financial point of view. What would Allison's potential salary have been ? 50k ? Now estimate what the potential cost of relegation could be to Johnson ? An increased loss of 250 - 500k ?

As RTID says a League Two club will also be less attractive to a potential investor as the income : salary ratio would broadly be the same as in League One but with less potential for growth and fixed overheads (ground maintenance etc.) which are higher as a proportion of overall income.

I think it is also daft to suggest we are 'a League Two club' when our gates, even last season (our lowest average in 20 years) were higher than all but three of the clubs at that level, and the great majority of our history has been spent in division three.