Bolton Wanderers v Tranmere Rovers

Boz

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2005
Messages
5,591
Fav Player
Iain Hume
If we’d packed the midfield say started with McCullough and Potter, maybe could have protected the defence. I understand why Micky went with a more attacking option though.

Turn your question on its head. Shouldn’t a UEFA A level coach have spotted the weaknesses in Ray’s game and counselled against signing him or picking him ahead of Nelson? Shouldn’t a coach with those qualifications have developed a promising youngster like Nelson, rather than regressing him? Higgy probably isn't be the answer but it’s legitimate to raise Jacko’s failings as a defensive coach


I am not sure we have enough knowledge of what goes on in training to deem Jackson a 'failure'. His success in partnership with Mellon suggests he is anything but. To turn your questions around, what if Ray was simply the best we could afford and Nelson simply is not quite up to League One standard (at least, not yet) ?

If he is such a poor defensive coach, how has Monthe developed so rapidly under his supervision ?
You’ve not addressed my point that Jackson hasn’t tackled some defensive failings. I agree Monthe has improved with us though not yet the finished article. I haven’t said he’s a poor defensive coach, rather that someone of with his level of qualification ought to be capable of doing much better than someone without those accreditation's. Agree that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but if I was in a position where as a defensive coach the advice I was giving was being disregarded, think would be inclined to move on. So either Jacko hasn’t raised those concerns or has been overruled on them and hasn’t felt strongly enough about his advice being ignored....
 

Higgy

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2010
Messages
402
Fav Player
Dave Higgins
from what I’ve heard you can see why Ferrier wasn’t a success in walsalls relegation battle last season. Against Sunderland he was poor, throwing himself to the floor etc and sounds like it was a similar story today.

Thanks for the report RLC. How did Vaughan do?
Know what you mean Sparky. If MM continues with two up front I'd prefer Cookie and a.n. other. Vaughn or even CBT.
Controversial, but I don't think Ferrier is massively better than Payne.
BTW I'm flattered there have been calls on here for me to replace Jacko as defensive coach.
 

bigmart

bigmart
Member
Joined
29 Jul 2009
Messages
2,429
Fav Player
Ian Muir
Know what you mean Sparky. If MM continues with two up front I'd prefer Cookie and a.n. other. Vaughn or even CBT.
Controversial, but I don't think Ferrier is massively better than Payne.
BTW I'm flattered there have been calls on here for me to replace Jacko as defensive coach.
Agree about ferrier, I don't think he is up to much
 

ADD

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2018
Messages
403
Fav Player
Norwood
I’ve seen once on this forum and a few times on the others for people wanting Jacko gone and to be replaced by Higgy.
Do they think a postman with no coaching quals who’s been away from the game for around 20 years can really do a better job than a UEFA A level coach?
Ross, I said "someone like" I never said him specifically (although it has to be said he is very switched on on Ifollow about what is wrong with the defence and what needs to change). Let's be honest we all know people with excellent qualifications on paper who couldn't run a business or teach etc. etc. to save their life. I am just saying that I personally do not accept that our current form which is now by far the worst in the division is acceptable and I do not think this squad is as bad as is made out by some notwithstanding budget issues etc. etc. Whether that is MM or Jacko's or MP fault is the issue.
Turning it on it's head if it wasn't MM but A. Another who was our current manager would people still consider our performance since October acceptable? To be clear nobody wants anyone sacked if it can be avoided but I personally still cannot accept what many seem to think that it is ok if we go down and we should stick with our manager come what may. That however is a personal view and I fully respect those on here who think differently.
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
7,489
Fav Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
You’ve not addressed my point that Jackson hasn’t tackled some defensive failings. I agree Monthe has improved with us though not yet the finished article. I haven’t said he’s a poor defensive coach, rather that someone of with his level of qualification ought to be capable of doing much better than someone without those accreditation's. Agree that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, but if I was in a position where as a defensive coach the advice I was giving was being disregarded, think would be inclined to move on. So either Jacko hasn’t raised those concerns or has been overruled on them and hasn’t felt strongly enough about his advice being ignored....
How do you know that our defensive problems can be addressed purely by coaching ? It is quite possible they can only be addressed by signing better players.

In the games where Clarke has played we have been greatly improved defensively. He was absent yesterday, and we struggled.

You are asserting that Jackson is failing us defensively on the training ground, without providing any evidence. It is not up to me to prove a negative. What is your actual evidence that Jackson is not improving the players sufficiently, rather than some of those players simply not being good enough for the level (eg. Ray and perhaps Nelson) ?

Was Jackson a good coach in the last three seasons when we had tremendous success, and (for some reason ) a poor coach this season ?
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
7,489
Fav Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
Ross, I said "someone like" I never said him specifically (although it has to be said he is very switched on on Ifollow about what is wrong with the defence and what needs to change). Let's be honest we all know people with excellent qualifications on paper who couldn't run a business or teach etc. etc. to save their life. I am just saying that I personally do not accept that our current form which is now by far the worst in the division is acceptable and I do not think this squad is as bad as is made out by some notwithstanding budget issues etc. etc. Whether that is MM or Jacko's or MP fault is the issue.
Turning it on it's head if it wasn't MM but A. Another who was our current manager would people still consider our performance since October acceptable? To be clear nobody wants anyone sacked if it can be avoided but I personally still cannot accept what many seem to think that it is ok if we go down and we should stick with our manager come what may. That however is a personal view and I fully respect those on here who think differently.
Yes, if he was operating under the same constraints and had demonstrated that he was a capable manager by achieving significant success in previous seasons.

Nobody believes it is 'OK' that we go down, but it might be unavoidable due to the difficulties of dealing with back to back promotions, which is a highly unusual circumstance for any club to deal with, let alone one with relatively limited resources like ourselves.

If the choice is between relegation as a stable club, on and off the pitch, and taking a short-term decision which could be damaging on and off the pitch in the long term, then the first option is preferable.
 

ONIGP

Member
Joined
28 Feb 2018
Messages
561
Fav Player
Eddie Bishop
I don't think it's a matter of "come what may", Ross. If a manager loses the dressing room, for example, then it is a different issue than those we are struggling with. The truth is that we don't exactly know the constraints that the manager has been working within and how that has affected the players we have purchased. What we do know is that in May 2018 we were still the VNL and didn't know we were going up and in May 2019 we had just found out we were in L1!. That is massive in terms of changing players and not knowing what budgets are going to be in place whilst trying to ensure that some of the better players (at VNL/L2 level at least) are sufficiently contracted so they can't just leave if we don't go up. Add to that the injuries that have plagued us right from the start of the season and managing the club this season has been a pretty unenviable task.

Ultimately the trust has to be with our owners, and I don't see too much criticism of them. Is it not possible to accept that the club has performed pretty close to its potential and that, this season, that may not be good enough? Some fans are fickle and that is all part of the "game"; however, fans do have the power to force a manager out by making his position untenable. What they don't have the power to do is recruit a new one - so those fans should be careful what they wish for because the grass isn't always greener (what grass!). As soon as the position of a manager, who is being supported by the owner, becomes untenable and the owner's hand is forced there are unpredictable consequences to say the least. After the debt freeze by PJ and the poor club management (Butler etc) until MP took over we should be as aware as any fans as to how things can turn for the worse.

I'll be honest, it has amazed me that some fans (I'm referring more to social media and other forums than here) were calling for MM's head last week and criticizing MP for lack of recruitment in the window, lauding the same management team for securing Cook's services on Friday and then suggesting MM should go by Saturday on the basis that we couldn't beat Bolton and are going to be relegated. If we beat Doncaster on Tuesday, no doubt everything will be rosy again. It's barmy!

We have invested significantly in this window and, accepting that nobody will be 100% happy with every player we have brought in or released, this is an investment in MM by MP. If we start shouting for MM's head now, we might as well be asking for new owners and where does that end up? MP is as well placed as any chairman to make the decisions as to when his manager should be supported and has proved that he is not afraid to make the tough decisions when he has to. I, for one, would not be trying to tell him how to do his job, especially without full information.

Things are tough at the moment and relegation looks more like a probability than a possibility but the season is not over yet!
 

Boz

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2005
Messages
5,591
Fav Player
Iain Hume
How do you know that our defensive problems can be addressed purely by coaching ? It is quite possible they can only be addressed by signing better players.

In the games where Clarke has played we have been greatly improved defensively. He was absent yesterday, and we struggled.

You are asserting that Jackson is failing us defensively on the training ground, without providing any evidence. It is not up to me to prove a negative. What is your actual evidence that Jackson is not improving the players sufficiently, rather than some of those players simply not being good enough for the level (eg. Ray and perhaps Nelson) ?

Was Jackson a good coach in the last three seasons when we had tremendous success, and (for some reason ) a poor coach this season ?
I am not getting into straw man arguments, trying to defend something I didn’t say in the first place.
If a defensive coach is unable to improve the defence, whatever the quality of the raw material he works with then there wouldn’t seem much point in employing one.
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
7,489
Fav Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
I am not getting into straw man arguments, trying to defend something I didn’t say in the first place.
If a defensive coach is unable to improve the defence, whatever the quality of the raw material he works with then there wouldn’t seem much point in employing one.
We will have to agree to disagree.

I think the major issue defensively this season has been personnel, not coaching.

Ray is not good enough, Nelson possibly is not good enough, and Monthe and Clarke are good enough. The latter pair were missing yesterday.

I think Clarke's return to fitness is vital to our survival chances, as he has held the defence together in the few league games he has played.
 

drwhoman

Member
Joined
30 Jun 2008
Messages
1,551
Sacking Mellon will make no difference. Who do you get and will they keep us up? Unlikely. The sad thing is that we were promoted too soon. A decent L2 squad has not been good enough for L1. Historically, with the exception off the days when we thrived on Johnson money, Rovers have always yo yoed between what is now L1 and L2. The way it has always been as a Rovers fan!
 

bigmart

bigmart
Member
Joined
29 Jul 2009
Messages
2,429
Fav Player
Ian Muir
We will have to agree to disagree.

I think the major issue defensively this season has been personnel, not coaching.

Ray is not good enough, Nelson possibly is not good enough, and Monthe and Clarke are good enough. The latter pair were missing yesterday.

I think Clarke's return to fitness is vital to our survival chances, as he has held the defence together in the few league games he has played.
We are knackered then as clarke is likely to be out for a further two weeks
 

Ian

Super White!
Admin
Joined
21 Sep 2005
Messages
7,653
Fav Player
Aldo
Knee jerk reactions are part and parcel of football. You have a bad season, fans turn on the manager. It's no different elsewhere. Luckily we have a level-headed chairman who does not do knee-jerk reactions. Micky is going nowhere and we have to hope the lads can sort it out on the pitch.

It's pretty impossible to manage a football club these days. Back to back promotions and some people want more. The moment is start going pear shaped they want you out the door. Let's take a step back and remember how far we have come as a club in the last few years and get some perspective. It was always going to be a long, hard season for various reasons but the season isn't over yet! Where there is faith, there is light and strength!
 

bigmart

bigmart
Member
Joined
29 Jul 2009
Messages
2,429
Fav Player
Ian Muir
Tend to agree with that ian, however if as likely we go down it will be a missed opportunity this season with only 3 relegation places and Bolton with their deduction filling one place and Southend filling another. So we've really only had to end up ahead of one other team this season which should have been manageable as we certainly have not got the lowest budget. That we are almost certainly not able to do that is very frustrating and disappointing
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
7,489
Fav Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
We may not have the very lowest budget, but we are the only low budget club that has had to deal with back to back promotions. It is not really a missed opportunity if we were never really equipped to deal with the division in the first place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ian

ADD

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2018
Messages
403
Fav Player
Norwood
We will have to agree to disagree.

I think the major issue defensively this season has been personnel, not coaching.

Ray is not good enough, Nelson possibly is not good enough, and Monthe and Clarke are good enough. The latter pair were missing yesterday.

I think Clarke's return to fitness is vital to our survival chances, as he has held the defence together in the few league games he has played.
RLC and for me also we should just agree to disagree. Both opinions are perfectly valid - you talk about Ray and possibly Nelson being not good enough but MM brought them both in as he did Payne and as I have read on here Ray and Payne are our two highest earners so they were not not exactly bargain basement recruits.... Nelson also was almost universally acclaimed as a good signing but clearly now MM does not rate him now or coaching has not brought him on..
He also brought in Maddox (now at Southampton) RHM now at Derby and CBJ from Man U none of who ever cemented a place for whatever reason. It is fine to say that was that was the best MM could do budget wise but it is uninspiring to say the least....
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
7,489
Fav Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
RLC and for me also we should just agree to disagree. Both opinions are perfectly valid - you talk about Ray and possibly Nelson being not good enough but MM brought them both in as he did Payne and as I have read on here Ray and Payne are our two highest earners so they were not not exactly bargain basement recruits.... Nelson also was almost universally acclaimed as a good signing but clearly now MM does not rate him now or coaching has not brought him on..
He also brought in Maddox (now at Southampton) RHM now at Derby and CBJ from Man U none of who ever cemented a place for whatever reason. It is fine to say that was that was the best MM could do budget wise but it is uninspiring to say the least....
Just because Payne and Ray are on high wages by our standards, it does not mean they are on high wages by League One standards generally.

As many people have pointed out, because of the budget constraints most of our signings were gambles that had not been proven at League One level. Established League One players were out of our price range in the summer, and it is only now, with the FA Cup money and the Santini investment, that we can afford to bring those players in (Clarke, Woodyard, Cook).

As a result, it is no surprise that some of those signings - that were still 'bargain basement' by wider League One standards - have not worked out (Ray, Payne).

I think you are also probably overestimating how much we paid towards the wages of the youth loan players, some of whom we allegedly contributed nothing for at all (CBJ).

You might find that situation uninspiring, but if that was the financial reality facing the club last summer, there was little we could do.
 
Joined
11 Sep 2019
Messages
1
Fav Player
Johnny Morrissey
It is easy to forget that we were the 6th best team in League 2 last season; that we were promoted with a meagre 72 points; and had the footballing gods smiling down on us as we successfully negotiated the play offs. No surprise that we were bookies favourites for relegation at the start of the season and find ourselves in a struggle now. Not that this makes days like Bolton any less painful. As an aside, is it just me who didnt think Vaughan was any good. Hope I am wrong but based on Saturday he is not an upgrade on Mullin or Payne.
 

Ian

Super White!
Admin
Joined
21 Sep 2005
Messages
7,653
Fav Player
Aldo
It's hard to really judge Vaughan based on one lifeless team performance and no service. I think he'll do well but he needs service! His record suggests this also unlike Mullin and Payne.
 
Joined
15 Mar 2010
Messages
7,489
Fav Player
Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
It's hard to really judge Vaughan based on one lifeless team performance and no service. I think he'll do well but he needs service! His record suggests this also unlike Mullin and Payne.
Yes, he is definitely an upgrade on Payne and Mullin based on his career history.
 
Top