• Nigel Adkins has been given the Tranmere job on a permanent basis signing until the end of the 25/26 season. Continue the discussion here.

The Squad for 2017/18

Brightonian

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20 Mar 2012
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138
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Ian Goodison, James Norwood
Thanks BBTC. A really informative overview with some examples which help illustrate how the player compensation scheme is applied.

It seems you are correct that compensation could be paid to a National League club who has taken a young player released from a larger club, who later rejects a new contract offer after playing a significant number of games i.e. see Anthony Straker joining Aldershot Town after being developed by Palace then moving onto Southend following rejection of a new contract. However I don't follow your logic that it sounds like we might get money for Michael. Rule 63.3 Football League Rules "any club which makes an offer in accordance with regulation 64.2 of re-engagement to a contract player who is an under 24 Player ............shall be entitled to a compensation fee"

This will mean that a contract offer needs to be made before the current contract expires which clearly has been the case but as Michael was born 20/11/92 he was not under 24 at the time of contract offer as far as we are aware.

Just a thought, albeit perhaps a controversional one. I wonder with us losing the £400k support for the Academy if it should be treated as a profit centre in its own right, with the future determined by income generated to cover costs, given we seem to already make a deficit on covering the players budget after match income until off field income may make up some or all of the shortfall, without one off fixed asset sales. We could perhaps actively look to identify talent released by larger clubs in the age range 18-21 and structure further development rather than develop from scratch. Of course like all it is wonderful to see the home grown lads emerge from the long pipeline but wonder if the success rate might be greater given the compensation rules, our financial circumstances and the surplus talent that must be available. Any thoughts?
 

Boz

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30 Sep 2005
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Iain Hume
On Brightonian's point, I think Mark Palios has indicated he will fund the £400k for the Academy next season. However, if we don't go up after that there might be merit in the approach suggested. It's always been frustrating to me that despite the fact that we produce youngsters capable of holding their own at this level(see Maidstone away), their opportunities are very limited. Kirby and Stockton the last pair to come through who got regular appearances for Rovers. However the way the dice are loaded in favour of the big clubs now, it's hard to make much money from player development.
 
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Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
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John King
As I understand it we have been looking at players released by pl clubs for a number of years now anyway. After millions of pounds of investment in solar campus, there is no way we are simply going to scrap the development of our own youngsters. It is a key plank of palios' plans. In regard to Boz's point, next season we could have Stockton, Kirby, gumbs, pilling, duggan and Clarke in the first team squad, all of them home produced. That is not bad by any standard.
 

Boz

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30 Sep 2005
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Iain Hume
This season we could have had all the players RLC lists in the side but didn't. Haven't heard that Stockton or Pilling have accepted their contract offers yet. I take the point that there's potential to have a nucleus of home-grown talent in the side, it will be interesting to see what the reality brings.
 
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Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
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John King
It is not realistic to expect a 'home grown nucleus' of players at any level. One or two first team regulars is a good achievement, and we have that with Stockton and Kirby. In the next twelve months, Gumbs, Duggan or Pilling could also make a breakthrough.

You seem to suggest that Mellon is unwilling to play homegrown players. I would counter that if they are good enough, he plays them. How many of our supporters rated Stockton or Kirby before this season ? They have both been regulars under Mellon, and the former has gone from strength to strength, hence his offers from other clubs.
 

bigmart

bigmart
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29 Jul 2009
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Ian Muir
Part of the problem for me over the last few seasons is that we have brought in loan players who have never played at all and played them ahead of our own youngsters
 
Joined
1 Oct 2005
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5,692
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Alan King, Barry Dyson
Thanks BBTC. A really informative overview with some examples which help illustrate how the player compensation scheme is applied.

It seems you are correct that compensation could be paid to a National League club who has taken a young player released from a larger club, who later rejects a new contract offer after playing a significant number of games i.e. see Anthony Straker joining Aldershot Town after being developed by Palace then moving onto Southend following rejection of a new contract. However I don't follow your logic that it sounds like we might get money for Michael. Rule 63.3 Football League Rules "any club which makes an offer in accordance with regulation 64.2 of re-engagement to a contract player who is an under 24 Player ............shall be entitled to a compensation fee"

This will mean that a contract offer needs to be made before the current contract expires which clearly has been the case but as Michael was born 20/11/92 he was not under 24 at the time of contract offer as far as we are aware.

Just a thought, albeit perhaps a controversional one. I wonder with us losing the £400k support for the Academy if it should be treated as a profit centre in its own right, with the future determined by income generated to cover costs, given we seem to already make a deficit on covering the players budget after match income until off field income may make up some or all of the shortfall, without one off fixed asset sales. We could perhaps actively look to identify talent released by larger clubs in the age range 18-21 and structure further development rather than develop from scratch. Of course like all it is wonderful to see the home grown lads emerge from the long pipeline but wonder if the success rate might be greater given the compensation rules, our financial circumstances and the surplus talent that must be available. Any thoughts?
Sorry, Brightonian, I thought he was still under age.

Re your point on the abolition of the academy, it would be against Palios's philosophy for Rovers to be seen as a community club. I can see it happening only as a last resort if we face continued financial pressures.
 

Boz

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Iain Hume
RLC, historically we have had a nucleus of home grown players and no reason why it shouldn't be an aspiration. I doubt we'll ever have a team of them, but 3 or 4 regulars doesn't seem unreasonable. It always fires me up seeing lads who've come up through the academy getting into the team regularly.

I agree that Micky's handling of Stockton was good. He gave opportunities to Kirby too, although don't think over and above those other managers have. However his apparent freezing out of Mitch Duggan, raises concerns with me, particularly when he rated him enough to give him a new deal at the end of the season. Will have to see how things pan out.
 
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I agree that Mellon seemed reluctant to give Gumbs or Duggan time on the pitch last season, when the former certainly seemed ready to me. We will have to see what happens next season.

More generally, I think we have to remember the pressure Mellon is under in a division where we have to win virtually every game and finish in first position. Righty or wrongly, youth development won't be top of his priorities in that environment.
 

Cowshed Kid

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5 Dec 2015
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Bobby Hutchinson
The "youth" v "experienced" argument is so complex.
The youth performed magnificently at Maidstone. True, Maidstone fielded a virtually full strength team. But it was a dead rubber. And I don't say that to detract from our boys performance one jot.
Would I subject our boys to Eastleigh or, ironically the FGR that have turned up at our place last two seasons? No way.
I argue til I'm blue in the face that there's little gap between NL and L2. Generally its to say there should be two automatic places.
But if we're going to genuinely blood youth we need to get out of the hole that is NL. They will perform better and be protected more when, (not if), we are out of this arse of a league.
Boz clearly holds a candle to Duggan. And why not. He's probably the most "advanced" of the young crew. Superb display at RB at Daggers. But until we're on easy street do I want him or Bucko on the team sheet?
 

Cowshed Kid

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Bobby Hutchinson
If MM continues with our successful 352, and Vaughan goes, that might be the niche for Duggan?
 

Ian

Super White!
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Aldo
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Kingy
More generally, I think we have to remember the pressure Mellon is under in a division where we have to win virtually every game and finish in first position. Righty or wrongly, youth development won't be top of his priorities in that environment.
Absolutely. As much as Boz yearns for it, blooding the youth is not a top priority and it won't be until we get out of this damn league.
 
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Alan King, Barry Dyson
I can see both sides of the youth debate. For most seasons from 1994 until 2012 we have been mid-table without seriously threatening to be promoted or relegated. At those times, you can bring in youngsters from time to time without much risk. Every season since then, we have either been challenging to go up or fighting to stay up. It's not the best time to blood inexperienced players, so managers will usually prefer senior pros to fight their battles.

On the other hand, we have seen other clubs' youngsters brought in on loan. Ben Tollitt was a success, but Ben Tomlinson and Ethan Jones hardly covered themselves in glory. And look at the so called experienced pros Micky Adams brought in. Could our youngsters have done worse? I am not arguing for a flood of our juniors or even a nucleus. But we have hardly had a drop. Until Maidstone, the only glimpse of the emerging talent for the past several years was a cameo by Evan Gumbs at Luton and the odd appearance by Mitch Duggan under Paul Carden's brief reign. Say what you like about the importance of that game in Kent, but surely at least some of the players making their debut could have been used occasionally to effect in the squad over the past two or three seasons.

It's not 100% clear whether the likes of Omotola did not feature because they were not good enough or whether the reason they never made it was because they were never given a chance. I expect next year's policy will be the same as the last few years. OK, in fairness we do at least have a sizeable squad of experienced players under contract so may not need youngsters. But I'd like to see us run a reserve side again next season. This would let management keep an eye on emerging talent as well as keep squad members match fit. I would also allow players to go on loan, if that would help their development.
 
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Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
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Power, Holmes, Stockton and Kirby have all established themselves since 2012, the last two in the season just gone.
 

drwhoman

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30 Jun 2008
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I only just noticed that Ash Taylor played in the Scottish Cup Final yesterday for Aberdeen. Celtic won with a last minute goal.
 

Boz

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Iain Hume
Power, Holmes, Stockton and Kirby have all established themselves since 2012, the last two in the season just gone.
Holmes only played once for us before being released, then returning after 2 seasons at TNS. Could argue that Kirby started to get established at the end of last season. Stockton picked initially due to the issues with Cook. IF he signs on again and Cook's workrate problems are resolved, wonder who will get the nod to start next season.

I've only seen 3 of the youngsters playing in competitive first team games. Gumbs as a sub at Luton did well. Duggan in a handful this season both in midfield and as right-back, not the finished article, but showed a lot of energy and determination. Omatola in the last FL game v Bury, some nice touches, but now released, don't know why that promise not realised. Would agree with BBTC that there may be some merit in re-instating a reserve team, as unsure how much monitoring goes on with players out on loan.

My view has never been that you'd win this league with a team of kids. You might with a team of mercenaries if you paid enough, doubt we've got the funds. We haven't won it yet with experienced pros in 2 attempts though, maybe third time lucky. One of the areas where MM got it wrong for me was a tendency to select experienced subs, even where that meant an unbalanced bench, so you might have four attackers named as subs. Hopefully he'll address this by getting to know the younger players more in pre-season.
 
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Jason Koumas / John Morrissey
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The latest rumour is that Cole is going to Blackburn, which would be a great move for him if true.

Macclesfield fans also say we are signing Oliver Norburn, who could be a good addition. We definitely need some younger legs in midfield.
 

Boz

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30 Sep 2005
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Iain Hume
Would be a good move for Blackburn and Cole, if their manager is on the right wavelength for him.

Norburn I'm ambivalent about. Hasn't stuck anywhere for long and scored that goal against Braintree, after they'd kicked the ball out to get treatment for an injured player.
 
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Alan King, Barry Dyson
Yes, it would mean quite a step up for Cole and presumably a lot more money, so good luck to him. Morecambe fans must be gutted as they could have bought him for a song not long ago. Presumably we will get compensation or a fee. I hope the club agrees a fee with add-ons.

Re Norburn, I agree with Boz. Perhaps with the right manager as a mentor, he might start to show some of his earlier promise, but I see him as more a squad player than a marquee signing.
 

Cowshed Kid

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5 Dec 2015
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Bobby Hutchinson
Hopefully Jay will recover in time for the new season.
I'd defy us to sign anyone who has more legs in the middle. Circus acts are exempt!
He was in the form of his life since he's been with us when he got injured.
Presumably were waiting on Maynard. If he goes we do need a similar player.
A mate sent me a text "losing your keeper not good". He wouldn't elaborate so hoping it was a wind up.
 
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